Talk:The Winter Market

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This page has a good lay out, it is easy to navigate and to find the points of discussion - Danielle

I find the story to be intersting the ways it plays with the different approaches of technology. Rubin finding new use for technology through his artwork really portrays the social contstruction of technology. Then there are the others who let technolgy dictate their lives, those reffered to be "living by the manual" are following in the lines of technological determinism. 

All the content that needed to be sorted at the end of the analysis has been assigned to its most relevant question. However, everything still needs to be integrated and condensed. E.t.dale 18:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

How do I know who edits my work and how can I distinguish my work from someone else's? Are you able to see who submits what? For the questions for example, do each individual student have to answer them or is it a communitive answer? I've never worked or edited a wiki before so this is a new experience for me and I am quite lost..

I'm alright with the story, but I am a little confused about what exactly were suppose to do. Do we edit the home page, and add our answers to the questions under the analyis part, or we post in here... I hope we go over this for a bit in class tomorrow.

So I have absolutely NO idea on what is happening in this story. Anyone want to help me out and break it down for me? It is all really really vague and one minute I think I know what is going on and the next I am clueless :/ Vacevedo3 01:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy to help if you can tell me some specific things you are having trouble with. Also, those who have a sense of the plot might consider going ahead and starting a summary for this page (Wikipedia doesn't have one! We'd be generating new web content! Exciting!) That might help everyone get a better grasp on what is happening. Afamiglietti 01:59, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I am having trouble on grasping who/what Lise is and what exactly she is doing to make money? Vacevedo3 14:16, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Lise is not human intellectually and personality wise and also through her robotic exoskeleton she looks even more like an robot with a "human-like" AI.

At the end, she's a person who's consciousness is contained within a mainframe, similar to the passengers in the secret sharer. She gets the ability to walk around by with assistance from an "exoskeleton", making her basically a cyborg. To make money she is selling her dreams and thoughts, which the narrator then edits into a thriller for other people to experience. Her "body" is dying due to drug addiction and a disease. Rlama3 15:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me her body dying is a combination of the loss of humanity from selling out from becoming more main stream on a figurative level, and also the leteral dying of her body due to the drug use. One could argue that both of these types of things happened to many artists and bands of the punk era. Like Green Day who has sold out as we discused in class, or the artists like Nirvanas Kurt Cobain, or bands like blink-182 saw what they were becoming and terminated themselves. Cobain in the litteral self and blink-182 a as a band a little later on. Lise is a portrayal of bands as they loose what it means to be a punk band and get swallowed by main stream media. It would seem Gibson is saying that Lise, or these bands, are as good as dead once this happens. Amazerolle3 13:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree about her selling out. She finally becomes happy, she finally gets recognition for how beautiful she really is. When we found her, she was literally another piece of garbage that Rubin finds on the street. Like many times before, he perceives the greatness in what everybody else thought was junk. I don't think its about being punk at all; she realizes she is about to die and she wants to enjoy herself. She doesn't perish because she feels less than before, Lise dies because she cannot overcome her past. It eats at her body just like the wizz she overdoses.

Deleted "Rubin is called “gomi no sensei”. He is the master of junk. The items that Rubin picks up are deemed junk by society..." because it's redundant Tswihart3 19:34, 16 January 2011

Lise forced me to think about an interesting moral question. Who decides when/if they erase her from that mainframe? It is interesting because she lived her whole life in that exoskeleton and now she is trapped eternally in the mainframe where her ROM is loaded, but that was what she chose to do. Now if they erase her ROM is that person committing murder? Or just because it acts like her and contains her memories does it not count? kdietze3 19:41, 16 January 2011

That's an interesting thought, and hopefully something we'll get to discuss in our classes. Is it her choice whether she gets deleted or not, or is she simply erased when she stops being profitable? Has she truly become just like the appliances and other "junk" that Rubin collects, discarded as soon as it loses its usefulness? Definitely something to think about. Tswihart3 14:12, 17 January 2011
It's important to note that it's not really Lise on the mainframe. It's actually "...a program that pretends to be Lise to the extent that it believes it's her." (139) So when we talk about deleting this program, it's just a program that was built in her image to give the company more ideas and dreams for their products. It wouldn't be deleting her, but it would be deleting a replication of her personality in computer program form. punnava3 20:52, 17 January 2011
I think that's one of the parts that is left more to the reader to answer. Clearly, you think that it would not be Lise. Casey, however, wouldn't be so sure. He even ask Rubin if it would or wouldn't be her. This sort of also brings up a new sort of question as well; is artificial intelligence worthy as being treated as the equal of humans? If they think that they're someone, couldn't that mean that they are someone? --Bhymel3 17:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
That's a great point! I hadn't even thought about it that way. In a way, it reminds me of Sunny from the movie I, Robot. Throughout the movie, he has a level of emotion that none of the other robots had, and in the end, they treat him as a human. However, in this situation, I see it as a little bit different, primarily because the computer version of Lise is only on a computer. Sure the program can call Casey and talk to him, but it will never truly be her. Or it will never be her unless the program is programmed with all of the memories and emotions Lise had before dying. However, when I read the piece, I made the assumption that the technology did not exist to convert a human personality and memories into a computer program. punnava3 22:40, 18 January 2011

Early while reading the story, I found myself somewhat frustrated by the lack of information given about the story. Obviously it takes place in the future, and they can plug themselves into a computer or into another person (maybe?) to extract the other persons thoughts, but I was left uncertain about many things. There is new vocabulary introduced such as 'gomi' that left me wondering if I may have missed the part where the book informs the reader of all these unknown words and ideas. However, after getting more than halfway through the story, I began to enjoy it because I had more or less formed and image in my head of what was going on. Maybe the author wanted each reader to be able to interpret certain things in the story how they want to, to form their own unique image in their mind.  norangio3

The style of the story can be a little frustrating, but it is an intentional design choice on the part of the author, not a mistake. The idea is to drop you into the middle of the story, and then allow you to piece together your own understanding of what is going on based on your interpretation of the details provided by the author. This technique is actually quite common, and will be utilized by most of the stories and novels we will read. Afamiglietti 19:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Ha! I added my comment just as you were amending yours. I think you've figured it out, Nick. Afamiglietti 19:32, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
This story was very confusing to me as well but then I did the same thing, forming an image of what was happening as I read the story. I was worried that my image would be completely incorrect, but nonetheless I did enjoy the story.Ismith30 21:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)This story was kinda confusing at the beginning when I read it first and understand lack of information given about the story. Did not catch up any information about technology topic. I tried to imagine the scene of the story while reading it. Hope I can understand it further when I read it again or more.

So I was thinking last night as I wrote my paper and was struck by something that made me re-read the part when Lise tells Casey "sorry". At first I believed that Casey had nothing to do with Lise's death and it was really her own fault in the end but upon further analysis, I actually think he could have saved her. He says she breaks character when she said she was sorry. She never really showed feeling like that to him before. She was not wearing her leather jacket that she always had on zipped to the neck. I think of this as her "shield or emotional guard wall". He said she wore this jacket always; even if it was too hot to be wearing a jacket and never took it off. When she tells him sorry, he did not even realize she did until much later. Instead he snapped on her about how her Wizz addiction and need will never be fulfilled to what it did to her the first time. She would never get that full high she had before. This of course he said with anger and disgust and as you could imagine this put her off greatly. After this, she puts back on her jacket and zips it all the way up. This to me shows Lise reaching out to Casey, only to be put down. This was what was left of her human qualities and he pretty much just ignored her plea and thus sealing her fate to just keep going down the path she begun. Maybe if Casey had been a little more human himself, he may have saved her life.tannershirah

Interesting thought, considering how its true that she wasn't hiding behind any of her normal "barriers" when she tried to connect to him emotionally here. Humans are social animals, no matter how independent and "lone wolf" anyone may act, everyone needs at least a little love and companionship. Lise was so self-conscious of her limitations (remember her reaction to Casey's expression the first time he sees her?) that I think deep down she was afraid of being pushed away when she extended a hand of friendship because of her limitations and dependencies. Casey was the only person remotely close to a "friend" for her, so when he pushed her away like that it probably destroyed any last bit of attachment she had to this plane of existence, driving her to escape her physical shell through conversion into a computer program. I hope you came up with that early enough to incorporate it into your paper! Msmith312 22:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Somebody still needs to edit out the "question 1" "question 2" headers so that our Wiki looks like a source of information instead of a class project. jpham7

After reading the short story, I am convinced Lise is still human. Does anyone else share this claim? Am I wrong? -Ross

The theory is that her personality is still human...ish and will live on, but in the physical sense she is no more. The question that this rises is, can a program ever simulate responses to communication well enough to be human, and does it only have to be good enough to trick the users. Because if the users of the system are tricked, then there is no more work to be done. - Jeff

I don't believe she is human at all. She is basically a simulation of her own personality and her exoskeleton is mostly robotic as well making her basically a robotic version of Lise.

I do not agree with this statement because it is stated in the story that she is not though she does posses human like qualities through her AI system.

I disagree with this statement because I feel she has fully gone away from becoming a human, and this is especially evident in the bar scene, where she is trying to hold onto what is human. Lise has always wanted to be a part of technology and I don't think she is human at the end of the story.-Sri

Good point, but you even admit she is trying to hold on to her humanside so she is still human by the end of the book. If she was purely machine, she would not even bother to be in a relationship because love is an emotion that only humans can experience. -Ross

I guess she still has a little bit of human qualities left, but she has gone past if she can be human, and I don't think she can turn back. -Sri

Although it seems cynical, I think the desire to become immortal is very much human. In this respect, one can argue that Lise is still human. Also, does being disembodied mean that one is no longer human? --ltolentino3

I have another question. Why are there so many references to Japanese culture? These details seem irrelevant to the plot of the short story. -Ross

I would guess because Japanese culture is a major influence upon science fiction in general, or perhaps vice versa. Ismith30
I think it is because in the 80s, Japan was a rising star and looked like it would quickly become a superpower. A lot of science fiction written during this time extrapolated that and assumed that the future would be heavily Japanesse influenced. It's sort of like Chinese references in SF today (e.g. Firefly). Robert'); DROP TABLE Students;-- 13:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Historically, the U.S. has had a lot invested in Japan since The Marshall Plan was executed to grant relief aid to countries in Europe affected by WWII. Japan received a significant amount of aid in the attempt to transform it into a more capitalistic economy. The U.S. thought it would serve as a barrier to the slowly growing communist influence through most of Asia. As Japan has grown and developed into a comparable technological and industrial nation to the U.S., our culture, especially in the 80s, became fascinated with the rise of Japan, and as a result, became fascinated with the idea of a Japanese superpower as Robert discussed earlier. Msmith312 22:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)I would have to agree with Msmith312. Japan was currently rising in power at the time this book was written. Due to this, the author referenced them as an influencial part of why he wrote what he wrote. Japanese culture is unique to the majority of U.S. culture so it deemed relevant to use in the short story. Ccarlson8
It might also have to do with rising popularity of Anime with science-fiction themes like Gunbuster and Mobile Suit Gundam.--Eric.Yu 22:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I organized this pages analysis into readable paragraphs. Just FYI  -Sean

Great job Sean! Now the page looks so much better than it did before. Cheers to you mate!

I'm going to move the the questions down to the relevant analysis so that it is easer to see what is being answered.

            If you do this, do it for the rest of the wiki questions too. We need uniformity, and having only one page with a strange system is incredibly unproffessional - Sean

Thinking back on this story, I was thinking about how to compare Lise and the Mechanists from Schismatrix. Lise is uploaded to a computer and Ryumin is wired up similarly. I originally though of Lise as no longer being human, but now I'm not so sure because I viewed Ryumin as still being somewhat human. Perhaps it is because Ryumin still has a flesh and blood brain somewhere. Just food for thought. - Andrew

This page is very informative and detailed. It provides good evidence for the things that it says, and it is laid out nicely. --Jdavenport8 03:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Further Reading

  • I found a webpage which has a similar purpose as The Winter Market wiki page does. This page consists of in depth analysis of William Gibson and his short story of The Winter Market; with this resource, readers/ contributors can utilize it as a tool to further discussion in future classes or add newer content to instigate different perspectives on the wiki discussion page and on the main page. Hope it helps.1
    • This link, also appears to be broken, it fires us off to a generic error page. I tried to find the appropriate link, but it was a quick search, but I wasn't quite sure what it was I was looking for.
      • I fixed the link, it seems there was just a stray character interfering with the URL. That being done, the analysis being done in that page is certainly very extensive, and could help those students more interested in analyzing the text thoroughly.

The Winter Market was a great way to start off the year. It gave us an idea of the hacker culture in a unique way. "The streets find its uses for things" seemed to be the most memorable quote during the class. It came up in almost every book or at least half of the show and tells. This was by far my favorite short story.

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